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Kinseymac |
COS = religion? Talk amongst yourselves... |
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In reading the article about Will Smith's religious beliefs and goodness and TCs goodness and all goodness being equal blah
blah blah, I feel like I want to deconstruct the Scio talking points, spin, etc. when it comes to refering to COS as a church and TCs "religious
beliefs". I feel like too may people who don't know the facts swallow the religious freedom statement from the get go and then you're on a
losing battle with COS to allow them the same rights to worship as they see fit and the whole conversation just goes around and round and...
COS has spoonfed this message out to the world and, as is their main focus, they start every conversation
by putting the other party on the defensive. This happens over and over again in the media and interviews about religious tolerance and "freedom to
worship however we want", etc. etc. You know the line. Anyway. I think it is important to keep repeating that COS is NOT A
RELIGION in any true sense of the word (except to the IRS.) And I'm assuming that the only reason the IRS classified them as a religion is
because the IRS was infiltrated, fair gamed, blackmailed, etc. into submission. And shame on them, by the way...
Anyway, back to my point. COS = religion?
COS doesn't believe in a "higher power" or deity that I'm aware of. COS believes
they, collectively and in some cases individually, are the higher power. If COS is a religion then Dale Carnegie courses should be
a religion. Dale Carnegie courses, paid by the individual taking them, offer tools to become more successful in their lives. COS courses, paid by the
individual taking them, offer courses to help people become more successful in their lives. What tenants of the church are there besides "clearing the
planet" of non-COS? Seriously. It can't be honesty and kindness and love for one another when they think destroying anyone in their way is A-OK.
They encourages their members to lie and lie well. I read something on one of the websites about COS classes specifically for people to practice lying to
their auditor over and over again until they were naturals at it so in case they had to go to court they could lie easily under oath. So when Will Smith says
he's no believer, but talks the COS talking points, blah blah blah, you can be sure his "faith" would not require his honestly. Same with TC.
When a reporter asks Will or TC a COS question and they give some glib nonsense asinine answer, I want to scream at the TV for the reporter to dig a little
deeper and understand who they are dealing with.
Sorry for my rant, but every time people reading Will or TC or any COS talking about their religious freedoms being infringed
upon, and people reply to that statement as if it is fact it drives me crazy.
I will be quiet now...
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SistaBigBones |
#1 | |||
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I'm of the mindset that the whole "COS isn't a religion" argument is counterproductive. Having never been involved in that organization, I
can't say for certain what the heck they believe. But the mere fact that there is a belief in the principles signals religion, at least in America.
There are several religions where there is no central deity which is worshipped, but it's covered up. Mormonism comes to mind pretty quickly. Although they advertise themselves as followers of Christ, the basic belief of Mormonism is that men have the ability to become gods themselves upon their deaths if they follow certain principles as outlined by Joseph Smith. It's the ultimate in self-improvement seminars. Some of the Eastern Religions also have the same premise. No central deity is worshipped, and people are expected to reach a perfect state based upon their actions. I think that the people who leave scientology and then scream, "it's not a religion" are fighting a losing battle. Because with the exception of children born into the belief system, most people went in as adults, however young and decided they could use the things offered. It was their religion at the time, therefore it is one to the people still involved. I've said it before, in America we have the Christian Identity movement [Nazi/white supremacist beliefs]. We have people who are worshipping everything from nature to animals. And they're entitled to claim this as their religions. The issue really has to be that the laws of the American land decry a religious test for office and a state favored religion. We've gotten away from that whole concept, especially with the "faith based" grants [bribes]. As a Christian, I don't care if you want to be a scientologist of your own free will. I do care if you want me to subsidize it with my tax money. I do care if you think stalking people is acceptable. I do care about every day people are being threatened for just having opinions. But I care insomuch as these things aren't just horrible actions, but against the laws of the land i live in. I think the scientologists love the whole "it's not a religion" road, because it focuses the argument on doctrines as opposed to illegality. Just my opinion though.
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Craptaculous.survivorsucks |
#2 | |||
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Religion or not, they aren't allowed to do the following under the Constitution of the United States of America, and most other countries in which they
operate:
-Take people for all they're worth and provides nothing in return except some BS crap from a sociopthaic science fiction writer who died with psych drugs in his system -Leave children who are raised in it uneducated and uable to deal with the "real" world -Imprison its own members in places called the RPF and the SP Hall -Neglect members to the point of death (Lisa McPherson) -Give its member ultimatums that they will be excommunicated or declared Supressive if they don't cut ties with friends/siblings/parents/spouses who are deemed PTS |
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Kinseymac |
#3 | |||
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I guess I'm having a difficult time with the argument that believing in the COS teachings, many of which happen to be illegal and amoral, is acceptable
while "practicing" the beliefs is not. Said another way, if they are really true believers in COS, and COS believes it is right and just to behave in
hideous and illegal ways and misrepresent or cover up or lie about their very beliefs, how is it okay to believe it? The teachings include brainwashing and
mind control but it's okay to believe that's a appropriate even if you don't do it yourself? Does that make any sense? I'm not trying to
argue, just sorting it out in my mind.
Anyway, thanks for your thoughts Sista. |
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SistaBigBones |
#4 | |||
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Hey Kinsey, I just think the issue of the morality of the religion is separate from whether it can be called one. People believe in the doctrines. Therefore,
it is their religion.
Again, if the principles are going to lead to illegal actions, I think it's best to focus on the illegal actions and the conspiracy to commit them. The rest just falls into place. Part of why that polygamous cult in Texas was able to get all those kids back when there is tons of documented abuse evidence is because the state and the pundits began to focus on the doctrine of the people as opposed to actual broken laws. Their doctrine says marry off young girls, I find it reprehensible. Most people do. But you can't prosecute based on disagreements in doctrine. You have to prosecute based on broken laws, no matter their motivation. You can't show pictures of Warren Jeffs kissing any young girl and base the case on that. He's already in jail. You have to base the case on the girls having sexual relations with a grown men, and provide concrete evidence for every child involved. When CPS wasn't able to bring criminal actions against the cult, the kids went back. I wasn't surprised. The government has been raiding the polygamous cults for decades and it's always the same result. EDIT: syntax and I forgot something! |
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ggm jen |
#5 | |||
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Sista, while I understand what you are saying, I feel there is a very basic flaw in your logic. By the reasoning that they are simply following their religious
doctrine, and that means they are a true religion, then all the cults that exist are also simply people following their own religion's doctrine, and
therefore are religions...even if they are guilty of some heinous acts against their followers.
I think anytime we get into an organization that blatantly abuses the basic human rights of their members...not to mention stealing all their worldly possessions, whether through outright theft, or brain-washing the members to hand it all over...that we are into a shady grey area of "religion" that is more accurately described as a cult. Which is still, by definition, a religion. And I still contend that Scientology is, at it's very best, a very expensive self-help program. The only reason it enjoys religion status in this country is because they have been declared tax-exempt by the IRS...through some very shady happenings. ''And I said, I don't care if they lay me off either, because I told, I told Bill that if they move my desk one more time, then, then I'm, I'm quitting, I'm going to quit. And, and I told Don, too, because they've moved my desk four times already this year, and I used to be over by the window, and I could see the squirrels, and they were married, but then, they switched from the Swingline to the Boston stapler, but I kept my Swingline stapler because it didn't bind up as much, and I kept the staples for the Swingline stapler and it's not okay because if they take my stapler then I'll set the building on fire....'' |
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princesspeach |
#6 | |||
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IMHO, if Scientology is a religion, then so was Enron.
Today's Deep
Thoughts
A day without sunshine is like night. The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese in the trap. On the other hand, you have different fingers.
Kitsch In Sink. |
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crackles |
#7 | |||
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Scientology started off as a pseudo-psychological, self-help movement. It was only after the American Medical Association began charging Dianetics with
practicing medicine without a license that Hubbard declared Scientology was a religion. If Scientology was a religion, then their practices became religious
practices, and not medical ones. I know that up until recently, Scientologists told new members that Scientology wasn't really a real religion, that it
was actually up-to-date science based on the discoveries of Hubbard. CoS claimed they were only listed as a religion for tax purposes.
Sorry to muddy the waters on the "is Co$ a religion debate." I think Sista's posts are excellent. All these cults have abuses, and it is usually best to focus on the abuses and broken laws, rather than getting into a debate about whether something is a religion or not. |
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madame duran |
#8 | |||
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I find the question of "Is Scientology a religion?" to be an effective distraction that the CoS uses to draw attention AWAY from their criminal acts.
Lots of time gets wasted with arguing about what constitutes as a religion or the definition of "cult" instead of asking what kind of social
betterment society would commit so many human rights atrocities as a natural--nay, a fundamental--exercise of its
philosophy. Scientology in practice does not square with the moral values it professes and that is the point that should be driven home. I'll leave the
religion debate for academia to wrestle with into infinity.
Don't get me wrong...I'm not saying that the question isn't worth discussing at all. However, the topic tends to fall into a futile "is too"/"is not" fighting match where everyone is divided into two "sides" and remain locked in their respective positions. This does not help progressive dialogue; it stalls it. Instead of being persuaded to think critically, the Scientologist hears/reads the word "cult" then vigorously reacts to an "attack" on his beliefs (indeed, that is what s/he is trained to do). Meanwhile, the general public looks on and says, "Well, everyone's entitled to their opinion" then walks away, uninformed. I'd rather not spend my energies on minutiae at the expense of the bigger picture. Besides, in the Scientologist's mind, Scientology IS a religion. You might not share that view but who cares? It's a subjective matter of belief and the Scientologist will win. The challenge comes when the Scientologist is called to publicly defend his/her religion in light of the organization's failure to abide by either its own moral code or the laws of the country. Criminal activity is not protected under freedom of religion and/or belief. Since Kinseymac brought up the subject, I'll say this much: I view Scientology as a cult but will use the more neutral term "organziation" to get around any obstacle that the words "cult" or "church" may cause in discussion. Scientology definitely has a belief system but it's non-theistic in nature. The presence of a deity is not the sole mark of a religion (take a look at Buddhism). Still, Scientology doesn't align itself to the characteristics of what most people consider "religion" to be. In fact, the CoS often hides under the guise of religion when it suits them (either to deflect any criticism/formal investigations of the organization or to earn respectability for the purposes of gaining trust/access to achieve their nefarious goals). If Scientology is considered a religion, then it's only so in the broadest, most vague sense...to the point where it loses any distinction and becomes almost meaningless. It would appear that Scientology's greatest defense for calling itself a "religion" is because the IRS granted it tax-exempt status. Unlike other religions, it's
quite telling that Scientology lacks a rich history of religious contemplation on life's big mysteries (not a surprise since Scientology doesn't
encourage free thought). How could we as MEST controlling thetans become so easily overpowered by engrams (and doesn't that hint at some kind of inherent
weakness?)? Is there anything greater than the thetan? Why do aberrations like false implants exist in a universe that was created by thetans who are
"basically good" and possess an analytical mind that "doesn't make mistakes; is totally rational"?
Holiday...feel free to answer any of these questions on behalf of your home team.
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chaotic2 |
#9 | |||
madame duran wrote: Whilst I understand what you're saying here MD and agree that we shouldn't let all our attention be focused on that one debate, I still believe it
should be debated publicly because in being "recognised" as a religion the Co$:
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